| Interviews between Harold Fish and Detective Scott Feagan 05/11/2004 | |||
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DR#S04-01254 HAROLD FISH FIRST CONTACT INTERVIEW INTERVIEWER: DET. SCOTT FEAGAN 2155 HOURS 05/11/04 Tuesday |
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SF: Hi Mr. Fish how are you doing? HF: Alright I guess. SF: You got your blanket? This has got to be pretty traumatic for you sir. Let me introduce myself. I am Scott Feagan, I am a Detective out of Flagstaff. Obviously I am going to need to chat with you and see what all happened here. I understand your car is down the road. HF: I have one down here yeah. SF: That way? HF: Yeah its off the 300, the old Rim Road. SF: Okay, how far down the road is it? HF: Its very close, it goes in a little bit and then another road comes in and we just pulled in and there was a little camping area there and its just parked right there. It's not more than half a mile at the most, probably 200 yards maybe. SF: Oh, you camped over there? HF: No I was hiking the Arizona Trail and my Wife.and I came up in two cars from Phoenix and put that one there so I could hike back to it. Then I got in with her and we went down to the Tonto National Bridge thing there. She let me out there and then I hiked. She went on home and I was going to hike back and then get in that car and go home. SF: Okay, I'm going to need you to come to Flagstaff and talk to me. Out here is not one of the better places. I understand you need to call your wife. Absolutely, and what I would like to do is one I need to look at your car, search your car, I need your permission to search your car on the deal. The way that we look at things we cover all bases. Not that I don't believe your story, your story sounds very valid, but I need to look at this to make sure everything is as it seems. And it does, you know I can see he's got a couple of dogs in the car. I'm impounding his dogs and get your story as to you're coming up the trail, his demeanor, his angle and from that I've got one of our trackers coming in tomorrow morning, daylight, so he can look at... Could you step out for a minute? Bring that blanket with you and cover up. Wrap yourself up it gets cold out here. Officer: Hey Scott? SF: Yeah Officer: Can you talk to the reporter? SF: Sure Officer: What do you want me to tell them? SF: Just under investigation at this time. That's Chris in my car. Officer: Oh, okay, you know what we have to get this fire truck out of here. SF: Yeah why don't we get these gentlemen on their way Officer: Thank you SF: Your welcome, thanks EMT; Here is our dispatch times, call number, the obvious wounds that we saw, here is a cardiac strip that shows consistently in 3 leads to confirm that he was dead. There is not much there but it's something. Do you guys need our home phone numbers or anything like that? Oh you guys got all that. SF: I would rather stay out of here. Let's back him out of here. HF: It's going to get cold up here tonight SF: Man it will, it actually will. Alright, excuse me just a second. Okay what I am doing. I am trying to keep all the tracks that came here. What angle did he come running at you at? HF: He and the dogs were at the front area there by the corner of the car. I came up the road trail, here. As I came up the dogs started running towards me and I thought they were trying to bite me, they were really aggressive. SF: Okay, one was like a German Shepherd, kind of looking dog. It's a brown... HF: I thought one was a Chow, but all I remember is they were yellow and teeth and growling. SF: Fair enough. We can walk right over here. Tell you what I am going to have to get my jacket. I'm not used to this. Okay. HF: They came that way and I remember I had an automatic on my pack. The little belt thing there and I remember telling him Stop the dogs. I couldn't tell whether I had startled him. I don't know what was going on over there. I remember yelling at him to call off the dogs and as they got about half way I drew the pistol and I am still yelling stop the dogs. They got right up to me and the biggest one, the most aggressive one, got about right there and put a shot in the ground in front of the dog. To scare him and stop him. The dogs jerked and went off to the side like that and here he came. He was running down hill full bore, yelling at me, he was going to kill me, he was going to get me and I don't know if I shot the dog, I don't know. SF: Sure HF: So I am yelling at him, back off, stop, and he's right on top of me and he's swinging his hands. I couldn't see if he had anything in his hands. I don't know. He looked crazy. He's coming right at me. The dogs on both sides of me, like that. Its bam, like that, I couldn't stop it. I couldn't get down, because it's down hill like that, I had my pack on, I couldn't go anywhere. I thought what's going on here. I figured you can't run from dogs, they will get you from behind, him on top of me. I wanted to anywhere else. SF: We can go ahead and step down here just a little bit. So somewhere around the front of your vehicle here. HF: His vehicle SF: I'm sorry, I meant his vehicle. Do you know if he is on this side. Where was he, was he standing? HF: When I first saw him they were in that upper corner up there where that shadow is. SF: Let me grab my light and point that out. So he started right here or that shadow way up there? HF: No, right there. SF: So you looked up and saw is he standing? HF: No he sat up and .l don't know if he was sleeping or whatever. It's the goofiest thing. I was real happy because I saw a car and I thought okay, I didn't know how far it was to the highway. I knew it was up here, but I didn't know how far. So I saw the car and thought I'm out. Done. Anyway the next thing I know here come the dogs. I wasn't paying attention to him so much, I knew he was out here moving around, but I was focused on those dogs. I remember yelling at him, call off your dogs and then they got somewhere around in here I guess and I had the gun and about right down there bam. I shot right in front of them thinking maybe that will back them off and it did. You know one went off to the left, one went off to the right. They just kind of off to the side there and I don't know after that I don't know how far they went because barn! I look up and good grief, here is this guy coming and he is doing this kind of thing and yelling at me and he's got this crazy look in his eyes. I'm yelling stop, get back and all this kind of stuff. He's right on top of me. SF: He would be above you. Now I'm looking at this tree where he is, were you staying right there on the trail where he is? HF: I must have been about where the stick is. SF: Is that your stick? HF: Yeah that's my walking stick. So I'm guessing I, was somewhere right in there and I remember I shot.. SF: Now when the dogs were coming did you drop the stick? Do you recall? HF: No I had it my hand but I didn't have it tied on, so I don't know if I dropped it at that point or I wasn't thinking about the stick. If I had thought about it I probably could have beat him with the stick. I just never... it was so fast. SF: Understood HF: I don't think there was three seconds went by if that and all of a sudden I'm going through real happy I'm out, I could get home to good grief dogs coming and a crazy guy. He was coming so fast I mean running full bore down hill at me. I remember the hands going like this. I'm going to get you, kill you. I thought good grief, I got no where to go. You know. I can't go down hill. Man. I thought man I got dogs, I got crazy guy, I didn't know if he had picked something up. I couldn't tell his hands were moving so fast. I thought I was going to get murdered out here in the middle of the woods. I was just wishing I was the heck someplace else. SF: If we knew all the answers it would be an easier world wouldn't it? HF: You know I have never had anybody do that SF: Right HF: Most of the time, 9 times out of 10 they call their dogs over, they say hi, you just go on down the road. I wish I could talk to him. I wish I could ask him what the heck were you thinking. SF: We do too. So that's not a problem. Well let me go and walk you back up here. I will be right back and snap some photos. Or do you want me to give you my camera? Officer; No will wait for you Scott SF: Yes sir Officer: Just a suggestion if he wants to use the cell phone to call his wife, let him. SF: Oh yeah. Okay. The 300 Road is off of this way, so his vehicle is up there and he said absolutely we have permission to search kind of thing. We have a satellite phone. What's that? HF: One of the officer's got my keys. SF: Okay HF: Its got a black rubber rim on it Officer; All of Mr. Fish's property is in here Scott SF: Okay, I have a satellite phone out here. Would you like to call your wife. HF: Oh I would love to call my wife because I know she will be worried SF: What I would like her to do is come up to Flagstaff. I think it would be best if she picks you up. We want to go through your car. HF: Sure, makes sense SF: It's a procedure we do, we can check. We are looking for you know everything from alcohol, drugs, so we will do that. HF: You won't find any of that. So go right ahead. There is an ammo can in the back but its got food in it. Its just got canned'good and such. There's some ammunition under the passenger seat. There is like a third of a box. SF: Is that the same ammo that you carried? HF: Yes its 10 mm SF: What kind of hand gun is it? HF:' It's a Kimber 10 mm auto SF: 10, okay that's a good gun HF:' Well, fairly brand new SF: Okay, alright, let's let you talk to your wife HF:' Okay I appreciate it SF: Get her to go ahead and come on up to Flagstaff HF:' Now we've got seven kids. The youngest of which is 2 months old SF: Oh my goodness HF:' So that's going to be a problem. What time is it here. I guess she can probably get a hold of somebody. and get them over there and have them baby-sit the kids real quick, I suppose. But if I can get a hold of her the sooner the better. They should be asleep so it should be a matter of just having somebody come over and stay with the kids. My oldest son is 15 and he could probably do it. She is a pretty resourceful lady. She is a nurse, she is an RN so she is used to handling things. SF: Okay lets do this, oh he is on that phone. You'll have to wait. Let me have you go ahead and wait in the car because I know it is going to be cold out here. Will let you make a phone call to her. HF: I appreciate it. SF: Hey Cap, when he gets off the phone, would you let Mr. Fish call his wife? Officer; Oh sure SF: I told him he would probably be a lot warmer in the car Officer; I don't know if the cell phone is working correctly SF: Oh we need a direct line. Where is your vehicle Animal Control: It is up there. I parked on the other side of the tape SF: Have you been told there are two dogs in the car? One of them is kind of hid under a backpack or he crawled under something. There is another yellow one under the steering wheel. Right there, but I need them dogs at your facility and separated. AC: And separated and how long do you want to hold them? SF: I will call you how is that AC: Okay, can I get some information from you? SF: Well you can get everything you want from me AC: Can you hold my flashlight? SF: Here is your flashlight back. I'm going to slide up here and get my jacket, bare with me. Hey Chris is my car locked? Chris: No SF: Okay Chris: I left it open SF: Good
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DR#SO4-01254 HAROLD FISH DRIVE BACK INTERVIEW INTERVIEWER: DET. SCOTT FEAGAN |
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SF: Alright he is going to drive your van into town. You have your seat belt on? HF: I do SF: Did your Wife seem okay? HF: Well I don't know if okay would be the right words, I mean she will handle the house and all that but she now knows the detail. I told her I had been involved in a shooting. SF: You told her you was okay? HF: I told her I was okay SF: Okay HF: I told her I would go with you guys and spend the night in Flagstaff and get a hold of a couple of friends, one is a cousin, ones a fellow we know in church. I'm not sure what kind of law they practice but they probably know somebody. This is not something I am used to doing. SF: Right HF: We are kind of on new ground here. SF: Oh absolutely, 48 Dispatcher: 48 SF: Back enroute to Flagstaff Dispatcher; 10-4 SF: What I am wanting to do is sit down and I know and see talking its kind of like not one of the better places to sit down and talk to you. Kind of give you a while sitting back and recall what happened. Your story. At some point tomorrow I would like for you to walk me back through the scene showing... cause it shows from that angle right there obviously this guy is coming down on you hard. There is some scuff type marks where he is... It appears he is hauling ass. HF: I don't think he could run any faster, the down hill accelerated him a lot. SF: Tell you what those Elk are bad on this road, we have a lot of vehicle/Elk accidents out here HF: Huge thing to hit too. Is there a time of year that it seems to be worse than others. SF: Summer HF: Summer. I just wondered if it was a constant threat kind of condition SF: To a degree it is, but from my experience and in talking to the Deputies on the road all the time is it appears there is a lot more hits in the summer. There is grass along the side of the roads. Believe it or not they are not that scared. You will even see big Bulls. You can always tell when it is hunting season. You see that piece of grass right here, that's prime eating and for some reason it appears to grow better along the side of the roads and they get out there and at some point something might spook them, could be a shadow off of something and they will just jump right in front of the vehicle. Its quick too. HF: I guess there is nothing that can be done about it. SF: No not at all, there is a lot of them up here too. So you have been retired how long now? HF: A year ago, in May of last year. SF: Did you have a thing of gas in your van? HF: I should have gassed up just before we came. That's pretty good on that. The only one thing odd about it, you probably won't notice but a couple of years ago the water pressure gauge started doing really weird movements and clear over to the extreme side. First time I saw that I thought I was going to blow an engine or something. SF: Oh man HF: I pulled over thought maybe there was too much oil in it I don't know what. Finally I figured out it has to be something with the sensor, so I let it go for a couple of years. Its just another no nothing van that I just keep around for this kind of thing. It gets pretty good gas mileage, its 20 miles to the gallon, so if we are going to travel to the woods it doesn't require 4 wheel driving conditions, it wilt move me and the equipment down the road. Like I say if I can park it in the woods and it disappears someday its not a big thing. We have only been broken into once. We drove up to Jacob's Lake. SF: That Jacob's Lake area is really nice. HF: Its pretty up there, just so far away SF: Yeah, its even far for us HF: Is that part of your county? SF: Yes HF: Is that right SF: This county is huge. HF: I knew it was big but wow SF: It is huge, we have sub-stations in different areas. For example in Fredonia we have a Deputy up there. He is responsible to the Jacob's Lake area. HF: That is where we had to take the van to get it fixed. I thought they would bring it. I don't know what it was, it was an insurance deal. We called up the insurance company and said this has happened and they said well, I thought they would bring us back into Flagstaff. They sent us to Fredonia. There was a repair station there, they did a fine job. SF: They charge a lot? HF: You know I think it was, I can't remember what the deductible was and that was all we had to pay. It wasn't too bad, but we had a bunch of stuff stolen. That is what hurt my feelings. SF: They just break the window out? HF: No, they somehow jimmied the passenger door I think. There were marks there. A sleeping bag got stolen. I could have kicked myself for not hiding it better. I thought I was being fairly bright because I parked not too far from the main road. Kind of like we did back here. My theory was the people driving by would kind of scare away anyone from trying to break into it. I was away from it for a day or two, may be they came in at night. It is such a remote area I was thinking they probably don't get that kind of traffic like you do here. I just wasn't anticipating to be broken. into. SF: Yeah, you know we don't have a lot of break ins in that area in reality. So do you do archery up there? HF: I was SF: They do archery up there every year HF: I love it up there SF: What kind of bow you shoot? HF: Then I was shooting a long bow which is neat but its kind of hard to hide. That's why- I ended up losing the bow. I shot compounds over the years but I kind of got away from those, kind of going back to more simple tackle and this kind of things. I enjoy it. I'm not nearly as good at it. I can't shoot nearly as far, accurately. I kind of watch my yardage, but its kinds of neat. Kind of fun to play with. I wish I was closer and easier to get up there. Its so far, it takes me 6 to 8 hours depending on how far you go. I noticed their upping the prices for season. $15 for charts. I believe its for archery. Its something else that makes life more difficult, they never remove restrictions it seems like they just come up with new ones. SF: Yeah, that's very accurate. HF: I think there is a lot of pressure, I think a lot of guys want to be up there and if they didn't control it some way there would really be a mess. SF: I heard rumor they were going to turn it into a draw for archery. HF: I would expect that they will, that's kind of the premiere unit right there. I suppose it will just go year after year until finally its that way for all. I suppose I don't know. We'lI see a lot of changes. It always seems to be more difficult with more rules. I don't know how to tell them how to do it any different because everybody wants to hunt elk or everybody wants to hunt Kaibab. You can't have everybody do what they want. I know that. More people moving to Arizona all the time. We are in Phoenix, which is now the 5th largest city in the United States. They were saying that last week, 5th largest city. SF: Oh its growing like crazy HF: So a lot of them want to hunt, I don't blame them. That's why you move to Arizona for. I would be the same way. SF: I just can't seem to get drawn. HF: Well we noticed that we didn't get drawn for anything last year. I think that's going to get worse, I'm sure it is. For me I'm 57 years old and I don't know how much longer I'll have the eyes and the ability to hunt, but for my kids, I wish it were better. SF: You got six kids? HF: Seven SF: Seven kids HF: We just had a surprise, a whoops. We thought we were through having kids. We really did. Guess not. So there is a little break, the next one is 5 years old. I got started late in life, I didn't get married until I was 42. No I was 38 when I got married. First kid was 42. So we have them from 2 months to 15 years now. SF: They are such a pleasure though HF: They are I don't know what I would do without them. Everyone's different and unique. Fun watching them develop. We have 5 boys, one girl for a long time and she was really feeling lonely, but this last one was a little girl so we are all happy about that. SF: How old is your wife? HF: She is 41 in November SF: Okay HF: Didn't have sense enough to say no when I asked her to marry me. SF: Is that smoke coming from your right or is that shadows? HF: I hope its not smoke, I think its shadows. It is burning oil SF: I don't smell like a brake or anything. Hey Chris can you pull over? 48 I was trying to get a hold of one of our Deputies. Dispatcher: I am not able to copy HF: Can I get out? SF: Oh absolutely
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S04-01254 Harold Fish Interview Interviewer: Det. Scott Feagan 05/12/04 |
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SF: What I do Harold is I understand the situation that you're in and I want you to understand the situation that you're in. Anytime there is a situation as serious as a death that is involved we are going to investigate and get all the information what has happened here. It clearly sounds to me like a case of self defense. Alright. From that tomorrow I would like for you to... once we get our people out there and do the crime scene, give them a tracker out there to look.... And you can see someone come running down through there. Kind of thing. It puts you there, your stick there, him there, you didn't run up to him. HF: Oh no. SF: And I mean the scene clearly shows that. But I have to talk to you and along that line and get all the details. I know you have already given a statement or written out some... have you read anything? HF: No SF: Okay, you gave a statement or something HF: First Officer that arrived. Asked me for a short statement, he just wanted bare bones. SF: Okay, from that you are not a suspect. I want to make it very clear. Also, I want to tell you, you don't have to talk to me. Okay? You are not in custody. I want to make this clear. But one thing that I have to do and we do this with everyone... it's to protect us, I am going to read you your Miranda Rights. Okay? And from that it protects us so that we can investigate this in the event that it turned out you were a suspect along that line, it protects us, okay. So I am going to go ahead and read you your Miranda Rights. It's already the 12th today at 1:20 am. I am going to keep this brief too. Get you a little hit of rest. HF: I am tired. SF: I know you are. Harold you have the right to remain silent, anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to a presence of an attorney to assist you prior to questioning and to be with you during questioning if you so desire. If you cannot afford an attorney, you have the right to have an attorney appointed for you prior to questioning. Do you understand your rights? HF: Yes SF: Do you voluntarily answer my questions? HF: Sure SF: Alright. I'm going to go back since you know we don't know each other. I mean you remember my name? HF: Russell? SF: Scott HF: Scott SF: Scott Feagan, here, I'm going to give you a card just, right here. I'm going to put my cell phone number on it. I have gone through three pens tonight, this is my third one. You get your Hotel or something comes up, that's my cell phone that is with me and you give me a call. I can get you a ride or I can, I know everybody up here, so we will get you fixed up along that line. Okay. Let's start out what you started doing this morning from you getting up. Obviously you had a plan to come up hiking. Okay. Tell me about your hike. HF: I just was going to hike part of the Arizona Trail. I've been doing sections of the Trail for a number of years and my Wife and I came up in two different vehicles. SF: What is your Wife's name? HF: Debora SF: Debora and the last is also Fish? HF: Yes, Fish SF: Okay, thank you sir. What time did you guys get up this morning. HF: About six, five-thirty, six SF: Okay HF: Did the usual stuff, got this kids off to school. Last kid left at 8:00 to go to school. HF: Got gas, got on the road, oh golly, I guess about 9:30, 10:00, came up the Freeway North to Cottonwood, turned off the Freeway and got on the General Crook Trail. Came up to where it T's therewith 87 and then took that grey van, the one that had the regular phone. Took that over and left it there for me to come back to. That was going to be my transportation home. So... SF: You took the grey van to where we picked it up? HF: Yes, I wasn't really sure exactly where the trail was going to come out. I knew that it would be within a mile or two of where I came out. So then I got back in the vehicle with my Wife we drove on down to where I had the last section I hiked finish which was the Tonto National Bridge. SF: So you are with the Wife and she... What time did you park the van and go? HF: I guess about 11:00 we left the grey van there because we were about.. it was about 11:30 when she let me out to turn off to the Tonto National Bridge. It takes about a half an hour to get there. I wasn't really watching the time, except the time that I started hiking because I can judge my distance a lot of times by the time that I have covered. So I got out of the van at 11:30 and hugged her, kissed her. SF: Did you need.... Have a seat over there. Chris: Well I'm waiting for the phone to ring from Victim Witness so I will stay close to the door. SF: Okay HF: Anyway I got out of the van and said goodbye to the Wife and got the pack and started walking. Walked down the highway but off to the edge there.. SF: You got your backpack? HF: Got my backpack with me. SF: Okay HF: Same one that was out there and there is a place where part of the Trail comes across 16 I think they call it. Trail 16. Was a trail head marker there, probably about 2.5 - 3 miles from the Tonto National Bridge turn off there. SF: Okay, so Trail 16, is that where you got out or you took Trail 16? HF: I left the Hwy at that point and started on the Trail. I walked it until I got to the Pine Trailhead, which is where the Highline Trail and a bunch of others, kind of intersect. SF: I don't know those trails. HF: Yeah, there is a big parking lot and you go up and its #31 and there is two or three depending how you walk a hundred yards and one breaks off this way and that way. And I took 26, which goes along, kind of parallels above pine creek, pine valley, whatever they call that thing and just goes on up towards the rim. I got up back in there and it goes, it comes down behind a girl's camp, Camp [name of girls camp removed]. It crosses Pine Creek and it drops down. It's really pretty. I didn't think much of the country until I got back in there. But that's really nice country. They have bracken ferns out at it was all green. It was really nice and then going through... SF: They are already green this time of year? HF: Oh yeah. It was really pretty. SF: We're in a dry spell. So I am learning here as we go along. HF: I'm used to seeing Pine Creek when you cross the highway, outside the pine and its dry. It was flowing and nice, it was really very lovely experience. So I started going up and climbing and then you have to ... it goes for several miles, just kind of meandering along the creek. Eventually you get up close to the rim and the trail starts doing switchbacks and you get up on top of the rim. It was a very nice trail. I was surprised, I had never been through that country before. I didn't really know what to expect as far as trail conditions. It was really in good shape. A couple of places where trees had fallen over recently, but basically it's a lot bigger and nicer trail than I thought. So by that time it was... I got to the base of the switch backs, I think it was about six, I think, 5:30, 5:45 right around in there, started up. SF: Hold on, got to switchbacks. HF: Yeah coming out of Pine Creek, where you start coming up, climbing up, to get up on top of the rim. SF: Out of Pine Creek. I don't know about switchbacks over there. Kind of like Oak Creek Canyon's the switchbacks I know of. Okay, so you've got your switchbacks out of Pine Creek. HF: About 5:45, right around there. Started coming up, I was surprised again how nice the trail was and I remember there was a sign right before the switchbacks that said it was 2 miles to Hwy 87, so I thought well its going to take about an hour and a half, 2 hours. So at 6:30 I was up on top. The trail very quickly ran into a road, what appeared to be a road. I couldn't see any signs or anything like that but it was for vehicular traffic instead of foot traffic. I knew that I basically had to keep going to the West. A couple other roads would come in. SF: Do you have a GPS? HF: I didn't bring it. I do, I have one at home, but I didn't bring it. SF: Okay HF: I knew from the lay of the land that I couldn't miss Hwy 87. SF: You had never been on these switchbacks and up. HF: Never had, but I knew if I kept going West, because Hwy 87 kind of parallels there. It was just a matter of where I was going to come out. I didn't exactly know where that would be. But I knew, I was more worried about the time of day. My nightmare was if I had gotten lost or off the trail or had to spend excess amount of time coming up that I might be doing it at night in the dark. I did have a little mini mag light but I didn't want to have to find trails at night because some times when they cross creeks and its night, it can get kind of hard to find the trail. SF: Yes HF: So I was pushing trying to make it up in good time without killing myself and it went really well. So I was really happy when I topped out. You know 6:30, I'm really happy. My world goes to heck in a hand basket right after that. But I am really, I figure the hard part is over with all I have to do is keep bearing to the left and find 87 and depending on where I would come out, I knew I would have to turn towards Clint's Well and I might have to walk a mile or two or whatever, but just follow along the road and then I would hit 300 and then go in and get my van and I'd drive on home. Go right back down to that T where 260 comes in, take the General Crook Trail and come on back. So I was thinking I would be home by 7:30, 8:00 easy, without any problem. With time to stop off at Camp Verde and have something to eat. So I come walking up and I again I got happy again because the trail was kind of steep there for the road. You know it got kind of steep coming up but I'm looking up ahead and I see this White car. You know so I'm thinking well I've got to be real close to something, because I am running into campers now. Because I wasn't really sure how far I would have to go before I got to 87. You know a mile, 2 or 3, I didn't know exactly how far it was. I could have probably pulled my map out and figured it out, but you know I was kind of I got to get there and who cares you know whether its one or two or three miles. I had plenty of daylight and that was what I was worried about and a road. So not a problem. So I am just chugging along and I see this white car and somebody camping there. I can see camping stuff you know around the vehicle. So, again, I'm very happy, because I am thinking you know, home and out of here. As I come walking up and I am walking up hill, into this camp, I don't know if this guy was asleep you know, or what he was doing or whatever. You know I am just casually looking around. In fact at first, now that I think about it, I thought the car was empty and somebody had just gone off hiking or something I didn't see anybody at first because I am coming up hill. So I see the top of the car but I can't see the bottom. I didn't notice anybody in the driver's window or anything like that you know, so I am thinking well somebody's just parked their car like I did. They are off hiking. So I am walking up the hill, you know, and around the front of the car, you know, all of a sudden this guy sits, I think he sat up, either sat up or all of a sudden he popped up let's put it that way. All of a sudden there is somebody coming up and I noticed two dogs. A yellowish orangey, medium sized dog. And my first impression is you know, camper not a problem. I have seen a lot of dogs and a lot of campers and usually you just stay on the road and you wave and go on by and that's all that it comes to. So I start to wave and you know and how you doing, I am okay, kind of thing, you know. Just let him know I am there because I can see the guy was just... SF: And he is looking at you? HF: Yeah he is looking in my direction. SF: And you wave. HF: And I wave and the next thing I know here come the two dogs, but they are not wagging their tails. Not that kind of come on. SF: Okay, now let me back you up just a little bit. When you first see him, I see where he is. What is your distance, what are you guesstimating? HF: Oh, by the time I realized, because I saw the car before I saw him and the dogs. But let me guess, maybe 30 yards, max. Couldn't have been much more than that. SF: First you would say it was about 30 yards. Okay. HF: I'm guessing, maybe 20. 20 or 30 yards. Because again with the pitch of the road kind of up, you know I can't see that ground, he is on the ground kind of thing and I don't see that part until... SF: But you think he is sat down or laid down? HF: Something yeah, because all of a sudden you know, up he comes. I assumed he was just taking a nap and that's fine. I just waved you know, and here come the dogs and they're coming right at me, but they're not, you know you can tell when a dog. If they're coming to say hi then they usually bounce a little bit and they're wagging their tails and they are, these guys just straight like bullets. Coming right at me. Growling and snarling. I really don't know, I'm not going to say that he sicked them on me, I don't know, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, maybe they got away from him. I don't know. SF: Did you hear any noise before the dogs came? HF: I had the transistor radio thing in my ear. You guys got it. I had a little radio. A little transistor radio with a head piece? SF: Well actually I saw that yeah. HF: So I am walking along. SF: Is it on? HF: It was, because I am listening to the radio program. So I'm in lahlah land. I am not expecting any trouble. I'm happy, I'm almost out. SF: What do you call that radio head piece? HF: Yeah ear piece, it wasn't both ears, it was just the one. So I've got the radio on and I'm just walking up and here come these dogs. SF: What radio station you listen to? HF: I was listening to 550 KFYI in Phoenix. I was listening, there was a really interesting program. SF: 550, that's an am? HF: I guess, I didn't see it but I guess they had a guy beheaded. SF: Over in Iraq HF: Yes SF: I heard about that HF: And they had been talking about that all day long, so I guess they taped it and they showed the guys SF: I actually heard that HF: Yeah, so they were, you know it was interesting, I was trying to get all their... SF: I'm surprised you were getting radio transmission down there. HF: Well I hadn't been for a while see, so I was heading back and listening to a talk show, listening to the radio. Hey, hike is over, hard part is done, you know I am out kind of thing. So I am cruising along and again here come these dogs. You know, I'm going wait a minute and I know you asked me about that stick you know and I always carried that stick in my right hand. My walking stick, because I am right handed. The only thing I can think of is that I probably in order to draw the gun, I must have just dropped the stick right there. SF: But you always carry it in your right hand? HF: Unless there is some reason why not to, because I am right handed that is my stronger hand. So I would have had that in my right hand I think. I remember waving like this you know and I am just walking along, how you doing, walking along with my stick and here come these dogs. I wish I could do it over again I ... I don't know, it's just eating me up, I'm sitting here all since this happened, I have been thinking you know well what if I this, or what if I that, or what if he this. You know. Why that? I'm going, it happened so fast that I'm thinking man if I could just have slowed it down or I don't think from the time I saw those dogs to the time I shot that man I don't think it was 3 seconds. SF: You got to understand how fast a dog can run. HF: Well yeah. So I must have dropped the stick. I couldn't have set it down you know. And I reached over because I had my little pack, it's a waist strap thing and my gun was over here on this side and so I reached over... SF: Okay when you say over on this side, you are reaching with your right hand? HF: Yeah I would have reached over because I am right handed. SF: The hand over facing that way for that kind of draw? HF: I would have taken my right hand over my left side to get the gun SF: And so the holster and the gun is on the pack? HF: Yeah SF: On the lower part of the pack? HF: Yeah, it was a waist band thing, goes across there, the belt. SF: Okay, hold on a second, I really, I'm going to grab me some coffee, right quick. Can I get you some water. HF: No I am fine. You helped me out a whole lot. SF: Chris do you want anything? Chris: Is there any coffee made? SF: No I will make some. Chris: I tell you I am getting hungry. HF: I am tired. I am tired. Chris: These things just take so long. But it seems cut and dry. HF: It was cold out there too. Chris: It was, the wind just came out of nowhere. It got really cold. HF: That's why I sat in the car. I had a long-sleeved shirt, but it was in the pack. SF: Nectar of the Gods. Okay so what I was asking you is the pack is on your back. The gun in holster is in your pack. So this is happening, you drop the stick, because at this time you are seeing, I am trying to visualize it and here is where I am going. The thought mode. Obviously those dogs are coming at you, the sticks dropping, the distance is closing. How far do you think the dogs were when you were drawing? HF: The one I didn't shoot, I shot in front of, but from here to the wall. Maybe five yards. I am not that fast on the draw. SF: You said 5 yards? HF: I guess, yeah SF: That right there is probably 7 feet at most HF: Okay, well, about that. I shot in front of the Iead dog. SF: Which one was the lead. One was solid yellow and HF: That would have been him. I thought he was a Chow at first. I was talking to one of the paramedics and I just remember seeing ears you know and teeth. I am going good grief and the other one was right to his side maybe a half step back. SF: Okay, there is one that is brownish black and one is solid yellow. The solid yellow had a red kind of harness. HF: I don't remember seeing that. SF: Understood, do you recall which dog was closest to you. HF: No I just know the one that was closest to me was the one I shot in front of. You know that's where I was looking. SF: Which one, the brownish black? HF: It was the one to the right and I can't remember. SF: Fair enough. HF: Orange brown is what I remember. SF: Okay HF: And the one I thought would get me first, you know I shot right in front of him. SF: Okay HF: Just dumped one right in the dirt SF: You're yelling HF: Yeah, I'm yelling stop, get out of here, go away. You know kind of thing. Whatever you yell at dogs, stop. I remember yelling at the guy too you know, get your dogs back, stop your dogs. Something like that and he is saying, doing something whatever. He is not my prime interest at this point, it's the dang dogs. I am kind of catching him in my peripheral vision. He is out there, but I am not focused on him, I am focused on the dogs. I think I am about to get clobbered here. I have seen dogs where they run up and they stop, they kind of look at you, but these guys didn't do that. You know they were coming right to me and then real fast with their teeth. SF: You made a statement and I am going to get analytical on you. I am going to hear you say, something to the effect that you can tell when a dog is running up to you or running at you. What were you telling me? HF: I think what I am getting at is, everybody has had dogs run up and wanted to get patted and played with. When they are just running up to see you because they are happy to see you, it may be coming quick, but they are wagging their tail you know, and they kind of bounce a little bit and these guys weren't doing that. I mean there was barking and snarling and nastiness. No tails wagging kind of stuff. SF: Okay and when they are barking they are literally barking at you? HF: I guess. SF: Both dogs barking? HF: Yeah SF: Okay, did you feel that the dogs were barking in a meaner manner or alert my master manner? HF: No my take was they were coming to bite me or I don't know maybe they would have stopped right a foot away. But they didn't look like that to me. SF: That's an unknown. HF: That's an unknown. And I didn't want to shoot the dogs, if I wanted to shoot the dogs I would have. SF: Right HF: I didn't do that and I didn't do it on purpose. I dumped one in front of the dogs thinking they don't understand what a gun is. SF: Right HF: I knew he did, but a dog doesn't probably unless they are police dogs. I figured the noise and the dirt hitting in front of them that would do it. It did to a certain extent. They stopped coming right at me, but they split and they go like this. SF: One is on both side of you? HF: Yeah they are over here SF: They didn't run off? HF: No not at first SF: Okay HF: They were running over, there, they were kind of milling around and I look up and here he comes. And this guy by now he has covered probably half the distance from where I saw him over by the car to me. SF: Okay let me back you up. When he is at the car, you see the dogs coming, did you relate that he is saying something to you? You're yelling something to the effect "stop the dogs". I can't put words in your mouth. As you said a while ago, he's yelling something at you? HF: Yes SF: What are you hearing? HF: Well I don't know until he is right there and then I've been trying to think exactly what were the guy's words. SF: Okay now when he is yelling at you are the dogs barking? HF: Oh I don't know, by that time I have kind of forgotten the dogs because now this guy has got my attention. I know the dogs are down here, you know, but there kind of like marking their time I guess. Maybe they were aware he was coming too and waiting till he.. the Master got there and told them what to do. I don't know. SF: Okay, We are going to relive this. Bare with me. You see him at the car, dogs are coming at you, you fire a shot, the dogs spread, if I say something is not accurate please let me know. Your next visual is looking up and seeing him half way. A distance that is half way between. Now you and the car ... HF: I remember when I shoot at the first dog there, I still have the gun there. I didn't take the gun and put it back in the holster. SF: Understood HF: So now the dogs are here and I have the gun here. SF: Okay, you are pointing the gun still in the general direction of where you fired it into the ground? HF: Absolutely SF: When you fired it into the ground how far away from your feet do you believe you are? HF: It was probably five feet away or so. SF: Okay HF: Right there, I mean those dogs were just there in a heart beat SF: Okay I am trying to get this visual, and from there say five or so feet away from you and how far in front of the lead dog? HF: Oh, a good foot and a half SF: Foot and a half. Okay HF: The dog is not in any danger, I was not shooting at the dog. I was trying to shoot between me and the dog. SF: Understood. I am with you there. Had he yelled at you prior to you firing the round? HF: I don't know SF: You don't know? HF: Okay I am focused on the dogs SF: Understood HF: At this point I am pretty scared because I am out in the middle of nowhere. I'm not expecting.. SF: You have come from tranquility to the "oh shit" factor HF: Real fast, like why is this happening to me, you know. I'm yelling at him get your dogs back. In my mind I am thinking the worst that is going to happen is I might actually have to shoot one of the dogs. But I don't want to shoot the dogs. SF: Right HF: So I am trying to-back out of this thing. I'm going how the heck it has got to this point you know. Anyway I look up and here comes this guy and he is yelling at me and he's got this look in his eyes and the hands. I swear he's got I don't know if he's got fists. I remember those hands going and this guys coming. SF: Now when you say hands going, HF: Yeah SF: You're motioning that they are going almost like that. HF: I don't know if its because he was running SF: Running motion? HF: I don't know, but he is coming to hurt me, I am trying to remember exactly what he said, you know whether he said I am going to kill you or I am going to .. he said something I can't remember what it is. It's something I am not used to. I wouldn't say it that way. SF: I want you to really think about that HF: I have been thinking, you know, but the whatever it was that he said I mean it scared the crap out of me because I thought Oh man, this guy isn't just going to come up and call me names. This guy again he's in full stride. This guy is running as fast as I think he could do it. Nov maybe the fact that it is down hill helped you know, maybe he is running faster than he wanted to, because of the down hill thing, I don't know. But he is coming Iike a freight train and he's got this look in his eyes. And in the back of my mind I am thinking oh he thinks I hurt his dogs you know? And I said something to him you know like stop you know back off you know I didn't hurt your dogs, your dogs okay. And he said something you know and I can't remember exactly what it is. Its like you know well you aren't going to be when I get through with you. That kind of stuff or whatever. And I think Good Gosh what's he gonna do? The fight immediately comes to my mind, first of all the guy is going to beat on me, second he could take my gun away and shoot me with it or beat me with it and all the time this was going on the dogs are going to be chewing on me because you gotta know if the Master or human being is beating on somebody the dogs are gonna jump right in too. So I have this vision of me rolling on the ground, trying to fight with this guy you know, getting chewed. I'm going Good Gosh I can't in my mind I know that I can't go back down because it is down hill. I'd have to turn to run and I know what happens when you turn from a dog. I mean they get you right there. I mean our little girl, well she's not so little, our 12 year old about a month and a half a go got bit by a dog. A neighbor, a friend. She went over to the house, she and her brother to get a volleyball, they had gone into their yard. And the dog was having a bad day or something like that, the dog barked at her, she got scared, turned and ran and before the neighbor boy could do anything about it, the dog got through the door, got her and bit her. He just ripped a hole in her leg, you could see her Achilles tendon. SF: This was about a month ago? This happened to your daughter? HF: Yes eight stitches, emergency room CHRIS: Victim Witness is here, do you want me to bring them up? They are down in the lobby right now I am going to go grab them. SF: Okay, yeah but I need them to wait in my ... Have them wait down in patrol CHRIS: Okay SF: Tell them wait, get them some coffee or something. We don't need a whole bunch of people in here with you. You know what I am saying? Out of respect for you. So your daughter was bit by a dog one month ago and... HF: About six weeks ago, trying to remember how long it has been. Not more than 2 months ago. SF: 6 weeks, okay HF: Take her down, yeah she got 8 stitches and they had to cut parts off you know. She has a scar today. Its healing up but it's a pretty nasty scar she is going to carry the rest of her life and we made a big deal out of trying to get her and her little 8 year old brother to realize you don't run from dogs. You can't out run them. And if you turned your back to them, they're going to hamstring you. They will get your legs, they will bring you down. I told her my own words come back to me, the worst thing that can happen is if it's a bunch of dogs, two or more dogs. Because one will knock you down and the other will jump on and its real hard to fight off a pack of dogs because they work it together. So all of this is in the back of my mind. I see these dogs coming, I can't turn and run, he's going to get me because he's coming faster. He is already at a full run and this guy I swear had a crazy bad look in his eyes. SF: Okay you talk about a look in his eyes, and he saying something to you. You do not recall what he is saying to you. Let's talk about the tone of his voice. You tell me what you are hearing. JIF: Like I say to me, my first impression was this guy thought I was hurting his dogs and he loved his dogs more than.. he was going to hurt me I guess. I remember telling him I didn't hurt your dogs, I didn't shoot your dog. Your dogs okay. Something like that. And then he comes right back with this thing, well you are not going to be when I get a hold of you. Or something like that. Its that kind of thing, he jumped on to what I had said and through it back at me. He was going to hurt me worst than I had hurt the dog even if I hadn't hurt the dog. SF: You said dogs are okay, or dog is okay HF: Oh, I can't remember. This guy is about my size maybe a little bigger, but he has a lot more muscle and he is full speed and bearing right on down. There in a split second I am thinking what the heck have I done. My choices are to take my chances with him and the dogs or use the gun and defend myself. It was a lousy choice. You know you go "oh shoot" I can't win. I don't want to shoot this guy. I don't want to hurt him. I don't want to get chewed on. I don't want him to beat on me and take my gun away, shoot me with it, beat me with it. And in a split second ham, ham, ham. I'm thinking as I am shooting, what a lousy set of choices to be given. I don't want to get hurt. I don't want to get chewed on out there in the middle of no where, where its' him and his dogs. I know the highway is over there somewhere, but I am not there and nobody is going to save me out here. Its me. All this happened and a thousand and one thoughts going through your head. Just wishing oh how can I get the heck out of here. If there was a place to jump off of I swear I'd jump off of it. Something to climb up on if I had had time to get up a tree. I was sitting in that car thinking what could I have done. What was he thinking? Why didn't he back off? Why didn't he just stop and call me all kinds of names, you know that's fine. I might call him a name or two back or we might end up being best buddies. He came in to hurt me bad, I really feel that. What bad would have been I don't know. Busted teeth, broken neck. I don't know. I have not personally ever seen that kind of look in a guy's face. I swear his eyes if they didn't cross. There was just a feeling coming out there that he was just going to light into me and hurt me bad. I know as we are sitting here today I would have been in the hospital. SF: Did you fear for your life? HF: Absolutely. If not my life, my bones and I thought there is nobody around here to help me. I didn't see anybody, there was no other cars, and then after all this is over, it took me for ever to get help. SF: Okay HF: I mean there was nobody. I fired shots; you would think somebody would come over. There was nobody there. Of course it was a Tuesday, it wasn't a weekend. HF: I guess there were people out and around but while I was sitting there waiting for the ambulance and police officers to arrive, the guy that had the..I guess he was a Forest Service guy, he called it in, he and his Wife...somebody was out there shooting. You know after about maybe 20 minutes of sitting there waiting we started hearing shots. I don't know if they shoot that much out in that area. I have never been through there before, maybe target practice is a regular thing. I don't know. I never saw anybody near by. He didn't have anybody else, it was about 3 seconds it was him and me and the dogs. And I was going to lose. I was going to get hurt. SF: You had a 3 on 1 scenario looking in the face is what it sounds like. HF: You know if I could have taken my pack off and thrown it at him I would have, I would have done anything, but that guy coming down hill fast like that. I remember telling him there okay. He said something like well you are not going to be when I get through with you. SF: Okay let's talk a little bit about obviously he is running hard at you, he's coming down, your first visual of him after you fire the round in front of the dogs, you look up he is half way, he's ... I am paraphrasing what you are saying... he's at full stride towards you in a running motion, his hands more in an upward motion or in medium motion? HF: Yes, my impression was he's like throwing punches. I was too far for him to hit at that point, so I don't know maybe it was because he was running or whatever but that's what I saw. He's coming to grab and hit. SF: Okay, do you recall a tree to your left? HF: Yeah SF: Okay where were you standing? HF: To the right of the tree. See I was in the road, the tree is right like at the edge of the road and I am in the middle of the road. SF: Are you below or above the tree? HF: That one I don't know, I must have cleared the tree, I must have been a little bit in front or something. I wouldn't have seen him there. If he's over here and the trees here, I would have to have come around, I guess walking passed the tree. I really don't know. I really can't tell you exactly where I was regarding the tree. I know that there was a tree there because I remember I couldn't go there: The dogs are coming, he is coming, I got bushes off to the right. I'm not sure what is over there. There is a tree thing there, all this in the back of my mind, the dog is right here. It's all down hill. SF: I can see where you approximately dropped your stick. It is somewhat above the tree, looking up at the car, it is a definite slope down towards you and I can see where the slope was a high degree. I want to walk back through it to the point of when the rounds, when you fired your first round at him, just ... HF: It wouldn't stop, it was just I mean he was right there, in fact I am not sure how close he was at that point, but my best guess is me to you. SF: There's five feet between you and I approximately. HF: Because I remember thinking how can I get away, I don't want to shoot this guy. I do not want to shoot this guy. He is going to hurt me. When we are having this running conversation thing and he is assuring me that he is going to hurt me bad. I didn't even see the sights on the gun. I don't even remember seeing the sights, I just remember sticking the gun up and I shot, I am not sure if I remember if it was three times. The reason I guess I didn't shoot four or five because he was right there and then he took off to the side. SF: Are they okay down there? CHRIS: Well if you could get everybody's permission to tell them. They did ask do you have any cash? HF: Well I do CHRIS: Do you have means? SF: We have his wallet HF: They've got all my stuff CHRIS: Yeah I noticed the change, I have your stuff HF: If you have my wallet I am okay CHRIS: You have cash? We will get it back to you it's just they are asking for tomorrow and that kind of thing. They are going to explain all the stuff that they can do for you. SF: Right now I am in an interview and I am not going to interrupt it. CHRIS: Okay they are asking for names and dates of birth and stuff like that. SF: Okay here is CHRIS: Yeah I told them they are going to stay down there until we conclude SF: Here is Harold's information CHRIS: Okay, nothing on the other gentleman yet? SF: We haven't positively identified him CHRIS: Okay SF: We have a pretty good idea of who he is, but he didn't have identification on him and so until then we are not going to give a name out, that's how that works. But anyway, lets go back, you say he is close when that first round went off you are saying he is within? HF: Like I said from here to the wall. My impression is maybe it's because he is coming at me from up hill or whatever. If I wanted to shoot the guy, I would have shot him at the car. SF: Right HF: You know, I don't want to shoot this guy and I don't have any choice left and there's no distance, I have been yelling. SF: When you say from me to you, approximately five feet, you are saying from here to the wall, now were talking 8 feet maybe. HF: You know I am just going by... SF: Exactly HF: Its so fast, I am sure I not precise but I have given you my impression SF: Okay HF: But I assure you, I did not shoot him way back at the car or even close to that car, the guy is right there SF: Right, now when you shot in your words, if I go bam, bam, barn or bbbam, you tell me how you felt, how quick the rounds came out. HF: Real fast SF: As fast as you could pull the trigger HF: I guess because I don't really remember pulling the trigger SF: Okay HF: I remember the gun coming up and that sinking feeling like dang, I don't have a choice. I didn't consciously decide to shoot once or shoot twice or to shoot three times. SF: When you are standing there shooting, do you feel yourself backing up? You say yes? HF: Whether I did or not, I don't know, but in my mind I'm trying to slide back and get off to the side and trying to move but its down hill. SF: Right HF: I'm scared to death because I can't turn and run. If I turn and run the dogs are going to get me. He's going to get me anyhow. Because he is at full speed, I am sure I probably slid a bit, I hope I did. I don't know, a crappy thing. SF: Okay HF: Really so fast, so fast, crazy SF: When he is hit or when you are firing and you are not sure you think you are backing up your not sure and that's okay, what is happening with him, what is he at that point doing? HF: He stumbles SF: He stumbles? HF: He stumbles is my impression. He kind of stumbles and slides down to the side there. He didn't go head first, he just kind of like you were sliding into a base maybe. I guess, I don't know, I am guessing that the rounds hit him up here because I don't remember seeing anything hit. The feet kind of stumble and he is kind of maybe the force of him because he had to have been somewhat off balance running like that. I don't remember seeing anything hit him, in fact, if you had asked me afterwards, if he had gone on by, did you hit him I wouldn't have been able to tell you. SF: Okay HF: I remember for some reason shooting three times and the gun was pointed at his middle at his chest. This was I don't know what you call it, point blank or point center of mass. His chest high kind of stuff. SF: So he slides down, almost like sliding into a base are you hearing anything from him? HF: We got down I am swearing at this dang SF: Are you saying dang? HF: I am saying damn SF: Tell me exactly what you said HF: My life has just gone in the crapper, his is in the crapper, you know I have had to shoot somebody which I have never done, I have never pointed a gun at anybody before. Why did you do this? Gosh. And that for a few seconds and then I thought I have to do what I can to help this guy, so I took my pack, he was on his side. SF: Was he able to say anything to you? HF: No he never said a word, he made a few noises, but he didn't really move much, just maybe a little shifting but he didn't try to get up or anything like . that, he was pretty much just immobile, just slightly shifting maybe. Of course he was on a down hill slope too, so he could have slid a little bit there. So I get my pack, I take my pack off and slide it underneath his head, because he was on his shoulder and his head was kind of listing down like that. So I knew that couldn't be comfortable, so I put my pack underneath his head, to get it kind of ... and I remember I had a space blanket thing in my pack, I didn't have a sleeping bag, because I wasn't planning on spending the night out. Space blanket was just an emergency thing, so I got that out. Covered him up with the reflective side in. He looked dead to me, his eye was kind of half open, half closed, I didn't touch him. I kind of wanted to, but I kind of didn't. I am feeling really crappy at this point. SF: Understood HF: I made him as comfortable as I could, I'm grabbing my cell phone, I'm talking to him, saying I will get some help, and this and that. No signal on the cell phone. So I go up to the highest point I can see on the hill. Try again. No signal. So Igo back to him and we are back and forth a couple of times. To check on him. He doesn't look like he is alive and I am going "oh shoot" I am stomping around. The dogs.. I noticed the dogs after he drops. I don't see both of them but I see one of them go back and get in the car. SF: Was the door open? HF: Yeah, I don't know what the deal is with the car, whether it had a broken door. SF: Which door? HF: The passenger side door, I see the one dog get in there, so I go back over you know, SF: You were calling which dog? HF: I just saw one. Later on they told me both of them were back in. I thought well I will shut the door that will keep the dog inside. I couldn't get the door shut. I stayed between, with the door between me and the dog in case the dog wanted to bite me again. SF: You went up and shut the door? HF: Tried to shut the door, but it's got something goofy about it, it wouldn't shut. I could get it closed about maybe six to eight inches. The dog didn't look like he wanted to bite me anymore, the dogs all of sudden were very peaceful. And the dog didn't want to get out and he didn't show any signs of coming out after me. So I thought okay fine. I am going to go get help. SF: So you see before you go the first time up the dog go and get in the car. HF: Yes SF: And what is your intent to go up to the car? HF: I just wanted to keep the dog in there, so the dog didn't get out -and attack me again. Because I didn't know why, I assumed the dog went back in for a reason because it was home or safe or whatever, but I don't want the dog or dogs to come back and get me without knowing. I didn't see the second dog and I assumed the second dog had run off. I told the paramedics when they came back"or when they got there that I thought the second dog might have been a stray or just ran off. But they went up and shined in there and I guess the windows in the back were tinted or dark and I didn't want to go back because I was afraid the dog was going to bite me. They said both dogs were in the vehicle. All I wanted to do was shut the door to keep the animal inside and keep me safe. So I still had my cell phone and I have gone up as high as I can go. I've gone back and I have checked and he doesn't look good at all. About that time I am up at the top and I hear a car go by at highway speeds. So I go 87 is just over there. I didn't know how far it was but it's just over there. So I go over to 87. SF: Okay let me ask you this, do you still have your 10 mm correct? HF: Yes SF: Do you still have that with you? HF: Yes SF: Okay, is the holster on the backpack? HF: Yes SF: Do you have it in your hand? HF: No SF: Tucked it in your belt. Okay. HF: Because I didn't have the holster fixed to the belt strap. SF: Okay HF: I had holstered it, I take off for maybe 100 yards to 87. Go up to 87 and I think okay now maybe I can get a signal through, try and call the cell phone for the 3rd time, still nothing, still getting no call. I realize I am going to have to stop the first car that comes by I've got to stop and get some help. So I am hoping the guy is still alive, even though he doesn't look like he is in good shape to me, I am not a paramedic, I don't know I have got to get the guy help. So a few minutes go by and finally this white car comes down the road and I just stepped out into the middle of the road you know holding up my hands and everything. It was this nice Forest Service guy who had On Star in his vehicle. Because his cell phone doesn't work either. So two of us had tried cell phones and it didn't work. But he gets the On Star guy and it almost doesn't work. It's kind of scratchy and lots of static but then we start this process that seems to take forever. I don't know if the guy was still alive I mean it took forever to get the paramedics there. It probably took an hour. I am guessing 45 minutes to an hour, we stood there. I have never heard such confusing conversation. I thought these On Star guys were a little sharper, but man, he kept trying to tell him, where he was located and they were supposed to have this and he and his Wife were all getting frustrated because we kept saying no its this way. So anyway finally the paramedics show up and it's actually by that time I think its dark. Or nearly dark. SF: When the paramedics or when the car comes by? HF: The paramedics. So they get there and I take them in and the guy on the On Star or the police officer, there were two or three people talking. I couldn't really hear all of it because I was standing outside the vehicle and it was hard for me to hear everything, The On Star or the people were saying and I went ahead and I knew that when they had to explain to the guys that I was the shooter and this and that. I didn't want to give him a lot of details because I didn't want to say anything until the cops got there. So I just told them there had been a shooting. The guy on the radio asked well is the shooter there and I said yeah it's me. Where's the gun and I had unloaded the gun. I had already done that but I had not removed the magazine. So while the On Star driver, the fire guy and his Wife are there, I took the magazine out, put it in my pocket and locked the slide back. SF: Okay when you locked the slide back, the round that is in the barrel did you put that in the magazine? HF: Yeah, well I had done that before hand. SF: Okay at what point? HF: When I left there and went out to the road. When I realized I was going to have to try and stop somebody on the road. I thought well I better unload this gun. I thought police would be there first and I thought they are going to be really nervous when they come if they know that I am the shooter and I still have a gun. I didn't see what I could do with the gun, I didn't want to ... I had already been back and forth a couple of times, so I thought well I will just keep it here and when they get here... that's why I locked the slide, I figured I could hold up the magazine, hold up the gun with the slide locked back so nobody could shoot me. You know there were people shooting out in the woods there, so I thought with my luck the way it's running today the police officer will arrive get out of the vehicle and bam there will be a shot off and he'll think I am shooting a round off. SF: Let me share this with you, maybe future purposes, lay it down and say it's over there. HF: Okay SF: That way they are watching your hands. Because if they see a weapon in your hands there could be issues. HF: Well when the paramedics got there they finally realized that I was the shooter and I could see they were a little nervous and they asked me and I handed them the gun. SF: Was it still tucked in your belt? HF: Yeah, I kept it on my person with the slide locked. SF: Okay HF: And then we just kind of waited and waited and waited. You guys got there and all that. You know the rest. SF: Okay, I want to write down a couple more notes and then I have a couple of questions for you. Again I will try and keep this brief but I mean this is definitely what you are going through at this point and you feel this is 3 seconds. This is happening fast. HF: Oh it was real fast. Those dogs and that guy, I don't know how long it took him to get into gear, but it was such a close distance and he was on top of me. I am sure he was worried about his dogs but dang it, I didn't shoot his dogs, if I had shot his dogs, I would have fallen over dead or something. I yelled at the guy I didn't shoot his dog. Maybe he didn't hear me, he didn't look right. He had this look, I don't know how to explain it, just a weird look. But I am just certain as we are sitting here today, if he had gotten a hold of me he was going to do some serious damage. He was going to do all he could to hurt me bad. SF: Okay HF: If it was just the dogs that set him off or I wish I had gone the other way. SF: You went up to the top of the hill or did you go up to the highway and then no one comes you go back down to him and you looked at him again, you did this what? HF: I went back a couple, three times SF: Two or three? HF: Yeah, once they were there, once the Fire Service guy was there, and we had been there for a while, I thought I had go check on, we had gotten the call through and they said the ambulance was on its way and would be there in a few minutes. So I thought well I better go back and wait there. If you remember a couple of roads that kind of came in there and I went back there and I took a big junk of wood and blocked off the road passed there so nobody would go down it and I went back to where he was. SF: Now why did you block off the road where no one would go down? To where he was? HF: No, so that, okay how could I say that. The first road comes through and went like this. SF: To the right? HF: And then the road he was on was over here and I put it over here to kind of block off so that the Fire and the Ambulance wouldn't just keep on going down the road. I wanted them to turn where the wood was and go down that little road where the man was. Because again because of the curve, the drop, I wasn't sure they would see the little car and me down there. And I got a good look at him and he hadn't moved and he had his eye half open and I thought he's dead, there is no doubt about it. By that time it was quite a bit of time gone by so I didn't want to stay there, so I went back and stayed with the Fire Fighter until the ambulance got there. SF: Okay, he was a Forest Service guy you flagged down? HF: Right, last name was Derringer I think he said, something like that. The first Law Enforcement guy that was with the Forest Service knew him. He worked with him before. SF: Okay HF: I didn't know he was a Forest Service individual, but the guy that handcuffed me and took my stuff and the first Law Enforcement guy there knew him, so he knows who the man and his wife is. SF: And was it Derringer that handcuffed you? HF: No it was the fellow with the moustache, pot belly, kind of Forest Service Law Enforcement guy SF: Okay HF: I am not sure he told me his name SF: They will do that for their safety. It's a standard procedure. HF: My hands got cold and I couldn't put them in my pockets. SF: Okay, can I get you some coffee or something? HF: No, I just need to go to bed. SF: Understood, I won't be going to bed, maybe tonight. What all do you have in your backpack? HF: Well, there is a 3 liter bottle that probably has less than a liter of water in it. That is in the bottom compartment, a big knife in case I had to spend the night out, or make shelter, had the blue tarp or space blanket. There is a snake bit kit, extractors, first aid kit mostly for blisters and what else. A couple pieces of candy for snacks. Matches, gold colored matchbox, spare cell phone battery, some extra ammunition, two magazines of ammunition in a military pouch thing. I did have the radio which I took out and was Iistening to. SF: Did you pick up any brass? HF: No, there is probably a few other things in there I am trying to think what, my shirt, had a wool shirt which is green and some garbage bags, an emergency tent. SF: Wool shirt and what did you say after that? HF: Trash bags, raincoat things SF: Okay, just gives me an idea of what's in there HF: Oh and two maps, a Forest Service map, Coconino Forest Service Map and some other maps I got off the mapping program off the computer. SF: Okay, I need to take some extensive photos of your shoes. We have the trail shut off. Did you find any or did you get any blood on you or anything? HF: I don't know, I don't think so. SF: At no point, I mean the physical part, did he ever put his hands on you? HF: I don't believe so SF: Okay you had some questions when we were coming up. doing and you said oh I got some questions. HF: Well nothing about the law enforcement thing, it's been just been sitting here going over and over in my mind. SF: Would you grab my camera? CHRIS: On your desk? SF: Yes HF: I have been trying to think how I could have avoided shooting that guy and I haven't come up with an answer. I don't know, I guess it just came down to the fact that I was really convinced he was going to seriously hurt me, between him and the dogs. And the only thing I had between that and getting seriously hurt was that gun. The only second guess thing I could and every time I come up with those they don't work. The only thing I may have tried different is the stick. But if I had hit his dog with a stick, he still would have come sailing up to me. I would be back to the same thing. Except I wouldn't have had my gun out. It would have been in my holster. He wasn't going to talk, he wanted to hurt me. He wanted to hurt me bad. SF: Did you ever hear him calling his dogs off of you? HF: No and they certainly didn't stop, obviously they didn't hear it either SF: Victim Witness still downstairs? CHRIS: Yes SF: Two of them? CHRIS: Three SF: Three?! CHRIS: You had a good response, he is set up at La Quinta SF: Okay CHRIS: On Beulah, they asked us to take him, I told them no problem, they will give you some information and a room number. SF: Did you tell them we will be down there shortly? CHRIS: Yeah, I was just coming up to see if you guys needed anything else SF: I will go down and chat with them. Batteries are a good thing. HF: Do you want me to take these off? SF: No, we will get you to follow us in your shoes. Go ahead. I am going to have you stand over there. This is very standard. What we do is take photos. You were wearing that hat when you were out there? Can you go ahead and turn side ways for me." Can you lift your arm up just a little bit. If you will turn your back towards me please. Then face the wall. Face back this way. You don't have any kind of marks. You didn't fall or anything? Go ahead and hold out your hands, closer together like this. Let's get you some sleep. HF: Can you tell me what's involved in tomorrow. SF: Tomorrow, can you, I know your Wife has the kids, can you have her or a friend come up here? The clothes you have, it's very common, this is what we do, we take them, just bring you another set of shoes, socks, pants and a shirt. And the hat we will go ahead and take the hat. Were you wearing a jacket over that shirt? HF: No this came from the car, he brought it SF: Okay, to bring you up another set. Your car has broke down, I don't know we can get it fixed tomorrow. The ladies downstairs, I mean if they have three ladies showing up at 2:30 in the morning, you know its one of those, we have one of the best Victim Witness services that I have ever seen. They are great. Generally they send two, but three is a little different. So I don't know what that is about. We want you to have your transportation, get back home, in case your car is not fixed and two to take your clothing on that line. HF: What time do you want to do this? Because I need to start my Wife about 3 hours before. SF: I would like to have you back out there at about 10 o'clock and I am pretty sure we will have to provide you transportation or if your friends up here. Can you have someone up here by that time? If not have them meet us at that turn in, say at the entrance to 387. Do you have anybody that knows how to get there. HF: My Wife does. SF: Is there someone that can watch the kids? HF: Well the kids will be in school SF: So that would work wouldn't it HF: Yeah pretty much, that'll work. Our daughter leaves at 8 but my Wife can go ahead and leave a little early and the daughter can lock herself out and take off and catch the bus and all that. If I call the Wife and call her about 6, I guess I better call her tonight. I hate to wake her up but I don't know if I will wake up at 6. But I can get her I think going and she can be up here by 10, 10:30. Its not-critical to have her there at 10 is it? SF: No, what about if we said 11? HF: That would be good SF: Because I would like to take about an hour for you to walk me through from there and send you home. HF: Sounds good. SF: Obviously I am going to ask you to not wash your clothes or anything along that line and you'll get them back at some point. HF: I am not worried SF: Its just part of the investigation HF: I didn't wear my best to go hiking, so that's not a problem. Okay then I will have her meet us at that intersection, 387. Is that where you want it? SF: Yeah I am trying to tell her what that intersection is where we are actually going to be parked. She wouldn't know that one. HF: No she wont, but I can get her there. SF: Does she know the 300, I don't want to get her lost, that's where I am coming from HF: She'll know. I can get her there because there was a white, it will probably still be there, a white maintenance vehicle road thing. That road kind of has a turn off or something there. I can get her in there. I can give her directions. She will be able to get there, I will have her there at 11. And if she misses us I'll have her go to the 300. SF: Okay, either way HF: That should work SF: Well I am going to go off the tape. It is approximately 2:45, it is exactly 2:45 in the morning. Off tape.
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DR#SO4-01254 HAROLD FISH WALK THROUGH INTERVIEW INTERVIEWER: DET. SCOTT FEAGAN 05/12/04 1050 HOURS ON SCENE AT THE LOWER AREA LOOKING UPWARDS TOWARDS THE VEHICLE APPROXIMATELY 30 YARDS FURTHER DOWN THE HILL FROM LOCATION OF 901. |
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SF: Have you seen the car? Last Edited 10/15/2006
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